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tv   The Dylan Ratigan Show  MSNBC  February 16, 2011 4:00pm-5:00pm EST

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about trillion dollar problems. we actually need to diagnose the disease in this country, not just treat the symptoms if we want to get serious about our debt and our budget, yet neither political party nor the media seems to want to do that. also, jersey boy, why are so many republicans going gaga over chris christie? the show starts right now. well, how much evidence do we need before we investigate the banks? if it was up to you and me, i would suspect this would have been going on a few years ago, all the prosecutors think, well, what are you going to do? convicted ponzi schemer, bernie madoff pointing the finger at america's largest financial institution, that would be you, j.p. morgan and others, when his scam frauding retires,
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charities, politicians, celebrities, you pick it. in a jailhouse interview with numbs number of times, he said, quote, the banks had to know, but the attitude was sort of if you're doing something wrong, we don't want to know. he didn't single out specific bank, but he did call them complicit. they were making a lot of money. adding fuel to the fire to the newly released documents disclosing at least one american at j.p. morgan chase, had serious doubts about madoff more than a year before the bottom fell out and the financial crisis exposed the scheme. most notable, this damning e-mail 18 months before the madoff arrest. it goes like. they say there's a well-known cloud over the head of madoff and his returns are speculated to be part of a ponzi scheme. pretty straightforward. as we know j.p. morgan not only did nothing, but they continued
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to participate in their end of the deal. for that, innocent people continued to pay the price, and talk about adding insult to injury, those same banks and hedge funds are now jumping into the claims process, hoping to get a piece of the settlement pie. you can't make it up. there is no question bernie madoff should pay the price for his ponzi scheme, but shouldn't we all be asking why anyone else in this entire situation, let alone the mortgage fraud, the lists, the whole problem, shouldn't somebody else be prosecuted, put in jail, maybe some reform, maybe not as long as you pay off some of the politicians. i want to bring in bill black, along with erin arvidon. bill, as a bank regulator, do you believe what bernie madoff is say? >> yes. you can't believe bernie, but
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the facts that bernie points out have to be true, and we know that they've been true in the past. look at the enron scandal, where you had ten of the largest banks in the world facilitating enron's frauds for a series of years. >> erin, we were looking at the money that's been -- but everything, clinton lewinski, they spent $40 million trying tots to the bottom of that huge problem for the future of america, the 9/11 commission they spend $15 million. after a multitrillion collapse in our financial system that led to countless millions of unemployment, lack of investment, lack of jobs, they spent $8 million, and they did it after they passed the bank reform, and then release it after you do the loss. can we get to the bottom of this without any real investigation? >> that's what the trustee is doing, and he's being paid very
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handsomely. his law firm has billed upwards of $150 million, just in two years, so someone is making money off investigating madoff. >> but bill black, how are the american people going to remotely approach justice, whether it's madoff's ponzi scheme or anything else when we spend mills onto investigate after the fact. >> again, trustees of bankruptcy cannot do it. there were significant trustee bankruptcy investigations of enron. we got the facts that at least ten of these large banks openly facilitated knowingly the frauds. none of them were prosecuted. what do you think that taught the banks as they went forward into this decade of the crisis? that they could profit with impunity, that even if they got caught, the worst thing that would happen is they would have to give up some or all of the money they had made, but not a single person was prosecuted
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successfully out of that at the end of the day. so, you know, it's a disaster and unless the justice department does far more, you're going to have this kind of crisis every five years. >> erin, do you have any insight in your own reporting to why the prosecutorial environment, the justice department, the ags, are nowhere on this? >> i think what's interesting is bernie said he's not helping in the criminal investigations. he said he would only help the trustee in any of these civil suits, you know, against j.p. morgan, trying to get back $5.4 billion, but he really has no interest in seeing any criminal charges filed, because his family might be included, his brother might be indicted, so he's not assisting them. i think that's a large part of why we haven't seen any criminal charges from the department.
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whether it's on madoff. >> we're going to look forward, not back, and therefore in the process of making that decision, let all these crooks off the hook. it turns out crime does pay. it turns out that if you steal a large amount of money and at least there's jobs for you somewhere else. >> it's increasingly fair, now two years in, it begins with the bush administration. i was reading a book last night. we made 11,000 referrals in the crisis. we have two numbers.
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is the two that report to treasury. madoff is an ugly tumor off to one side. he doesn't cause this crisis. the people that cause this crisis where we got 1,000 felony convictions in the savings and loan crisis, and now it's zero felony convictions in this crisis, the people who actually did the fraudulent lending. that's why we -- grayson is right. that's why you can now prosper by cheating. when cheaters prosper, the economy is just pure chronny capitalism, and it will be a disaster. >> if you were to look, erin, at the best thread to pill on for the big banks in investigating their relationship with the side tumor that is madoff, and i think madoff is beneficial, but also a distraction that allows
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the multitrillion dollar ponzi schemers in the mortgage business to say, look over there, but that's for another day. but if there's a thread to pull on from madoff into the big banks, where would it be? >> it starts with j.p. morgan. they were not only investors, but lending investors money to put into madoff. that's the hey day. a lot of the prime brokers were leverages up, lending money to investors to double or triple returns. i think j.p. morgan is particularly complicit, according to the trustees' complaint, because they had madoff's checking account. you know, they had a very leasy way to check and know your customer or do some kind of banking alert, but they didn't. >> do you agree with that, bill, as it pertains to madoff. >> dylan, as you know, the whole theory of financial intermediaries is it's because
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of these multiple relationships s. including, as you just said, having the checking accounts, that's supposed to give the barons superior information so they can make better decisions about integrity, credit quality and such, so ask a slightly different question -- if they can't find madoff, what could they find? right? these are supposedly the most sophisticated folks in the world. >> a question we are all continuing to ask, and i think as we really learn not just more about madoff, but as we learn more about the known worthless assets that banks were selling to pension funds and buying insurance policies, and the complete lack of investigation into that as we bear witness to protests today to wisconsin, and also at nyu, as though the weakest among us suffer, as the wealthiest pay off politicians to prosper, i do believe the
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question is where are the prosecutions will be asked louder, more frequently and more often in the months ahead, at least i hope so. bill black, always a pleasure. erin, a pleasure to make the acquaintance. we will talk tomorrow about the culture of corruption that has become the banking system on wall street. charles ferguson, the director of inside job rejoins us. the oscar nominated documentary "inside job" of course, his piece, extraordinary, it gets into a lot of this, and matt tie ta ibi, where are the -- we know everything that's an inside job, we know madoff, and yesterday prosecutorial discretion broadband exercised by the obama justice department and attorneys general. that's not because they get 40% of their money from the bankses, is it? i don't know.
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up next, mr. christie goes to washington. why the rep party is so excited about the governor of new jersey. is he so great or the rest of the field just that lucy? maybe both. also is justin bieber the voice of reason that america has been looking for in health care bee date? a canadian pop star's view of american health, after this. [ male announcer ] this is lara. her morning begins with arthritis pain. that's a coffee and two pills. the afternoon tour begins with more pain and more pills. the evening guests arrive. back to sore knees. back to more pills. the day is done but hang on... her doctor recommended aleve. just 2 pills can keep arthritis pain away all day with fewer pills than tylenol. this is lara who chose 2 aleve and fewer pills for a day free of pain.
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the old balletbook says lie, deceive, object fuss indicate, make it to the next election. let me suggest to you that my children's future and your children's future is more
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important than some political strategy. the hottest thing in the republican party, chris christie in washington for a highly anticipated speech on this nation's debt and our economy. republicans nationwide have praised his bombastic approach in dealing with unions and aggressive spending cuts. he's done well so far, and true to form, he wasn't shy about going after one of the budget's most sacred cows. >> you're going to have to raise the retirement age for social security. oh, i just said it, and i'm still standing here. i did not vaporize into the carpeting. what politicians fear is you do these things, say what i just said, you'll be vaporized politically. >> so christie now, the gop's best home for 2012? time to mix it up? we're joined by jonathan capeheart, and ann coulter, not
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that i hate to invoke a woman who believes more journalists should be in jail in america, which is interesting concept for someone who claims to be a patriot, but if we don't run chris christie, mitt romney will be the nominee, and we will lose. do you agree with that, jonathan? >> one, chris christie has said he's not running, so this is a hypothetical that probably will end up never happening, but i don't usually agree with ann coulter, so i'm not even going to bother. obviously christie assistants out from the crowd. >> part of it, remember, he was not the conservative. i don't think he is an ideological conservative. i think he looked around, saw what needed to be done and very
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practically-minded, went ahead and put in all these spending cuts. then you have his personal clearly resonates. if he ever became a senator, you would be surprised, sort of a middle of the road, tip dale northeastern republican. what if they desire to try to create presidential rhetoric around him, no matter what the man says. >> because there aren't republicans that are really doing this. you have boehner and kantor saying we need to get serious about spending cuts, then they vote to save an extra engine on the f-35 that the secretary of defense doesn't want. the same on the presidential field, too, where the other republicans, mitch daniels is one of the few guys who exudes that same sort of seriousness but without the attractive testifyness that christie has. >> go ahead, just your evaluation of christie, period?
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>> i think chris christie is terrific. here's a guy whose tough talk is matched up by tough action. all those things he's talking about, he talked about at a.i. today, those are all things he's done with the exception of dealing with entitlements, which he doesn't have to deal with because he's a governor. he's a governor in a state with deep financial problems and is forced every day to make decisions, you know, he's making them and not sugar coating them, not trying to get anybody's friend. you know, president obama talks about adult conversations, speaker boehner talks about adult conversations surrounding the big tough issues that face the country. chris christie is the one actually having the adult conversation and making the tough decisions. when people get in his face and try to yell back, he yells back. he actually yells back, which i think is driving his popularity. >> to another person who may be
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having an adult conversation, justin bieber, and note the calendar, one of the few times bieber will be a subject on the show, but he may have a new career as a health care activist. the canadian-born pop star making headlines with a new critique of america's health care system, telling "rolling stone," quote, you guys are evil. canada is the best country in the world -- he's a patriot, we can see that -- we don't need to worry about paying the doctor, but here your whole life you're broke because of medical bills. what is it, 60% of bankruptcies are links to medical bills? he hits the nail on the head, our health care is way too expensive. >> i'm very happy that chris christie is a guiding star of my side and justin bieber over in the house and they have arnold, the stuffed aired remark?
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aardvark? >> so arthur and bieber can be that. i was reading these comments, i didn't know who bieber was, i thought he might be a spokesman for the health care committee. you don't have to pay the doctor. >> how can you possibly, with all due respect call our health care system when it's capitalism, with monopolies that -- there's lots of capitalism. you and i both know it does not exist -- >> i move to strike the last words. >> consider it stricken. >> bieber on the cost of american health care to you, capehart. >> he makes an interesting observation. i thought maybe he was channeling you. >> if i could get control of that kid's twitter account, imagine the work i could get done. >> i can't wait to see what sarah palin and other conservative republicans do to him for saying you guys are evil
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and for not touting american exceptionalism, but there's something else he said, not dealing with health care in that interview in "rolling stone" that i found troublesome and interesting. that was what he said about abortion. and when he was asked you know, what about abortion in the case of rape, and i don't have it in front of me -- maybe brian or somebody back there has it -- he says things happen for a reason. i mean, that's -- >> let's go with tim karney and stick with chris christie when it comes to our political leading lights, and we'll observe our friend with the big twitter account is aware that health care costs, and we'll come baic to solve that another day. jonathan, a pleasure, and consider your comments about calling american health care capitalism stricken. up next, generations of debt, reporting live from a
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rally where nyu students were protesting the colltive $659 million, the largest single student debt load in america, a visit with cenk after this. sun life financial name. that changes today. i hear you're the clown in charge. so, cirque du soleil becomes... ...cirque du sun life. because soleil means sun.... (gibberish) i'll take that as a yes... sooner or later, you'll know our name. sun life financial. sadly, no. oh. but i did pick up your dry cleaning and had your shoes shined. well, i made you a reservation at the sushi place around the corner. well, in that case, i better get back to these invoices... which i'll do right after making your favorite pancakes. you know what? i'm going to tidy up your side of the office. i can't hear you
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welcome back, as they spin their wheels in a fake budget debate. the lack of jobs and obvious unfairness of subsidizing everything. in wisconsin teachers striking in protest to strip organizing rights. supporters have flooded the state capital, and students are marching in support of their teachers. back here in new york city, mtv's andrew jenks has helped
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organize a rally of nyu students. that's the single largest debt burden of any nonprofit university in america. it's a nonprofit university, yet they have their students in more dead than half the banana republics on the planet. and you can't get a job when you graduate, because our politicians. andrewenks joins us from new york university. before we get into the mathematics, what is they get-ups you're wearing? >> reporter: well, right now i have a shirt that has how much debt a friend of mip is in. he graduated from new york university with $200,000 in debt. everything behind me is water a
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similar shirt with how much debt they are in. it's quite staggering, when you look at all the numbers and people who are in debt. as you know, the average student in college in america leaves university $24,000 in debt. so that's -- you know, that's some version of indentured servitude. >> what about the masks? what are you planning there? >> reporter: excuse me? >> what about these masks of yours? >> we're all wearing masks to show that right now, as a whole we may not be doing enough, and we sort of have these blank fass and we're looking around and not sure what to do, and in the coming months we hope to change that, add faces to the numbers. that's ultimately our goal. >> walk us beyond what you just said, what your objectives, what your goals are in this protest and in other protests you may be plans. >> reporter: i think it's
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important i'm not just a spokesperson and i have a show on mtv and able to be on a show like yours. i think it's for others as well, especially students. one student who i met, his name is charlie, he runs nyu local, the unofficial student paper at new york city university. he is qualified to really speak on all these various accounts affecting students. look right here. he's on the low end at $20,000, dylan. >> charlie, how much do you hear from the students about the debt at nyu? >> well, i mean, it's a huge issue here. it has been for years. even nyu acknowledges their financial aid is not up to par with other schools around the country, but when you think about it, this issue goes beyond nyu, and we have to really try and start a dialogue here, because as you've already
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mentioned, 659 million in aggregate is just insane. i think the goal has to be to move the conversation forward to a state and federal level, because so many are left behind. as college graduates almost are 10% unemployment. we really have to figure out what we can do to start bringing down these levels of debt that leave a huge impact on college graduates around the country. >> charlie, do you think the tuition will be as high as it was if it wasn't easy to get a loan to an 18-year-old who has no idea what they're getting into frequently. how much is it is incredible tuition tied to the banking system? >> that's exactly the problem, something that i write a lot about on muir website, nyu local. when you think about it, people trying to make a financial decision that's going to affect
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the next two decades is crazy. and, you know, you even see some students say i have $200,000 in debt, and i understand what i'm getting myself into, but i think a lot of the times they don't understand what they're getting themselves into. it's up to the universities and to congress to make sure that the banks and universities are focused on making sure these young people at 17-year-old are making financial decisions that aren't going to leave them penniless when they're 25 and 30 years old. >> what's all the tuition money, that borrowed money spent on? charlie, maybe you have an answer to that. >> the tuition money? do you want to answer that? >> well, i mean, nyu is growing a lot, for sure. they're expanding a lot here in new york, and certainly that's going into that. they're hiring lots of
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professors, building lots of new buildings, certainly that tuition goes to that. this is a tuition driven university. they fully acknowledge that, and they basically expect students, undergrads and master students to pay the way for the 23 ph.d. appeared masters students to be an elite university. >> if you want to learn about this emerging casualty of debt, what do they do? >> i this i it's time that kids start up things like they have done, whether it be a demonstration or a town hall. it's a very serious issue. at uc davis i just read the other day there's a food bank that's been started up for students who don't have enough money to pay for their own meals. it's a very serious issue. i think a lot of people scoff at it, but this is something that's a national issue, not just nyu, and it's something that we want to be part of the solution, we don't want to be part of the
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problem. >> andrew, always a pleasure to see you, even if it's in a funny outfit. handsome as effort. charlie, pleasure to make the adwaynance. editor in chief of nyu local. check that out on the web. thank you, gentlemen, and congrats on a little public communication. still ahead here, will the real ron please stand up? the may i don't recall hopeful offering a bounty, a reward, for the identity of his obscene doppelganger on twitter. will rahm-bo find him? and how high will the price go? we're back after this. [ female announcer ] this is not a prescription.
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onemanuel, is a fake. he explains his dietary, i ate a bleeped up chicken salad san witch today, and i've been dealing with my own personal may i don't recall -- here's another one, he lays out the valentine's day plans -- sufficiently drunk to move on to the highlight of my valentine's night, throwing chunks of slush into the bleeping lake. not so good, but that's already. the faux rahm may have surpassed the real rahm in popularity. mayor emanuel has almost 27,000, and to his credit, and he thinks it's funny, and bounty he will give to the charity of the
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tweeter's choice if he or she comes forward. probably will be kept off twitter. up next, lots of billion dollar rhetoric from republicans and democrats, as america suffers from trillion dollar problems. we'll talk about the budget or faux budget with billy williams and cenk uygur, right after this.
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we understand the urgency. we understand that people want a solution now, but this is -- these are -- this is a big issue. >> the new white house press secretary, playing a little dog ball there. jay carney in his first briefing this afternoon. there may be a new guy at the podium, as you can see, handsome, but the big issues haven't changed. will washington finally turn off the money printing, the trade deficit, the budget deficit and kicking the can down the road as it were. by now a lot of phones have had time to digest the budget proposal. a lot of americans are having indigestion, about the trillion it will add to the national debt next year, not to mention the industry winners and losers. you can bet the phones are ringing off the hook at lobbies firms in d.c.
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so jimmy, before we get into the broader budget debate, with the documents that exists, who 'celebrating and who is crying? >> i would say everybody should be crying and everybody should be probably celebrating too, but the biggest winners in this debate will probably be, in my opinion, people that build thing in this country. the president's budget is heavy, and i mean heavy on infrastructure, so if you make steel, if you macon crete, if you make asphalt, if you make anything, railroad lines, any of that sort of stuff, you're probably going to do pretty well, because if i were a betting man, and i don't bet often, but i would bet that the president will prevail. anytime you send projects like that to home, they tend to be there with scissors to cut those ribbons. the losers, the defense contracting industry is going to suffer and they're going to suffer big. the former parent company of your station, ge, just got a big blow today. the joint strike fighter lost on
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the house floor. it was a huge vote. speaker boehner, some of those parts are made in his district, so ge, rolls-royce, lockheed martin and others will suffer, because everything, including now republicans, are saying the industrial military complex should and will be cut. >> james with me. president obama setting up for a showdown is that president's own proposal, whoever the winners and loser may be, which only takes out 2.5%. that's the white house's plan. the president facing another fight over that plan, not from the gop, but from within his own party. the young turk, cenk uygur understands that battle all too well. what do those inside of his own party, to the extent you can
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channel those within his own party, thinks about the 2% plan, regardless of the winners and losers. >> this hits the poor and the middle class. you can heating assistance for the poor, community grants something which the president used to work on before he became president. he cut some education programs, cuts, cuts, cuts. did we get to a negotiated solution? at the end of a long hard concessions from republicans? of course not. they were preemptive concessions, so we start now a little bit more right wing and probably plan to go further right wing you're cutting nickels and dimes, and you're hurting the poor, when in reality, i can tell you how to balance the budget in a minute. >> we'll save that for the last of this, but cenk has teed me up perfectly, james. can i offer you my thoughts? >> i would love your thoughts. >> so, yes, there are winners, you illustrated those, yes,
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there are some losers, not just the ones you talked about, but the ones cenk talked about as well. but before we get into the winners and losers, or as a side note, isn't it impossible to solve a giant problem by doing little things? here's what i mean. as i see it we have five multitrillion dollar problems in this country. a multitrillion defense budget. the health care system, they did a wonderful job of expanding coverage in the obama administration, and a terrible job of addressing the underlying costs of that is a trillion dollar problem for our country. our trade deficit, they tax our imports to their country at 25%, we tax their imports to our country at 2.5%. they discount their currency 50% to every u.s. dollar, so every time an american goes to sell
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something for a dollar, they sell it for 50% left. it's like playing price is right. same narrative, and of course the subsidies to the banking system. we have these trillion dollar vampires sucking on america's blood in defense health care trade, energy and banking yet both political parties, jimmy and cenk, focus on the pell grants, home heating assistance action you can eliminate all those things completely. let's do nothing. community service grands, n on. aa a million dollar problem, food safety. why do they go affair the million and billion dollar problems, while the trillion dollar vampires continue to suck on our nation? >> it's simple. because of politics. that sounds like a stupid answer, but they had a series of
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votes on this year's budget. the fit cal budget starts in october and ends at is i want 30s, so we're halfway through the budget. and they're just now passing it. so today on the house floor, they passed amendments to the continuing resolution. reps voted to restore legal services corporation, 68 of them did. 70 republicans voted to restore the cops program. 132 republicans voted to restore funding for first responders and firefighters, the point being -- but your point is you're saying these are teeny things. the reason they do little teeny things is because teeny things are called 30-second advertisements. if you vote the wrong way, what will happen is next fall they're going to run ads against you. this is what they do. they should do comprehensive tax reform and comprehensive budget reform. we haven't reformed the budget since 1974, and we haven't reformed the tack codes since
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1986. i was a sophomore in college when they did that and i'm older than methuselah. >> oh, they're going to take food from poor people. oh, high-speed rail. how exciting that's going to be, when the reality is the media doesn't force, whether it's the press secretary, president, republican leadership or democratic leadership, on the trade deficit, on energy in this country, on the health care system that costs us twice what it does, on the banks system. how much are the apology 'tis getting away with this, because the media is implicit in ig norse the problems in this country. >> that is absolutely true. we try to battle it here at 4:00 and at 6:00 here on msnbc. what's the heart of the problem? the problem is the politicians are bought. a lot of media are uncomfortable, and a lot are buddies, and they don't want to say it, but they're bought by the lobbyists.
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like you said, nondefense discretionary domestic budget, the entire budget is a little over $400 billion. if you cut it to zero, you cut everything off the board. >> that's what i'm saying. >> you still will have a $700 billion deficit. here's the answer. it's incredibly simple. go back to the clinton era tax rates, where we created 22 million jobs, where the economy was steaming along. we have a $4 trillion deficit problem over the next ten years, that would create $5 trillion. we would have $1 trillion to do fun things with. the whole problem solved, if you tax the rich just a little more. >> i would -- only think i would rebut, why tax when your revenue is being used to subs advertise a corrupt health care system, a corrupt trade policy, a transcript -- >> let's clean it up. >> before i collect anybody's tax money, before i cut oy
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anybody's food money, rich or more -- and you guys gave us the answer, but i think the three of us, if we understand it's a trillion dollar problem, have a voice in this and can not only play the ping-pong lefty/righty game, but force their hand on the trillion dollar problems. and a long list of other things, jimy williams, before your kids go to college, and cenk, same to you. thank you for the thoughts. thank you, james. coming up on "hardball," crist matthews on haley barbour's confederacy problem in the 2012 race, but first the worldwide web, changing the world and the way people share and change information, giving us a chance to deal with the $5 trillion vampires perhaps once and for all. talk with a friend of the google executive, who became the face of the revolution in egypt. wael ghonim, his buddy joins us. can technology spread that
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new protests rage across the middle east, calling for sweeping changes in their own governments. in iran the ayatollah spoke out against the opposition in his country, urging government supporters to express, quote, hatred toward protesters. also worries about the ability of oppressive governments to essentially shut down the internet. "new york times" reporting on how state-run technology companies across the middle east and north africa allow
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governments to slow down or choke off the flow of information across their borders, yet another obstacle to pro-democracy protesters that have been able to leverage that uniquely in order to pull off what they pulled off in egypt and the protests we see ongoing elsewhere now. joining us is a technology en y entreprene entrepreneur, and activist, habib gonag, a friend of wael ghonim. very nice to see you. specifically we were seeing what happened in egypt couldn't have happened even two or three years ago. >> actually i'm lebanese, but egyptian for the past 20 days or more. >> fair enough. >> what happened in egypt today is something that could not happen three years ago. internet penetration was not that high in egypt. if we look at the cycle that
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gotten from innovators, to the majority, that happened today in egypt. even in the protesters, so an april 6th movement, one of the biggest protesters groups in egypt started on facebook, only had about 50,000 users back then, now about 100,000. today we saw the emergence of a new facebook group that only six months ago, based on the innocent person who got tortured by the police, and who now is about 800,000 users. if you think about it that's only a facebook feature that allows growth, and the fasters growth 2349 region in the middle east. so basically that growth is also translating through to the protesters. how real is the government's ability to stop this? >> well -- >> shut down the internet? >> shutten down the internet in egypt was interesting. there were some talks about people giving credit to the
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minister of information, it was a good, bold move, what happened in egypt was kind of shutting the whole -- down, that was something that was a delicate maneuver, but at the same time it shut down the internal internet of egypti, so banks, hospitals, and that crippled the economy. so governments will have to think twice before they take such a big move. >> what's your degree of confidence, though? and what do you believe are the implications of information sharing among oppressed people, where whether in the middle east or anywhere else? >> so, it's happening -- one of the things that also is going to preventing that is also the same two allowing that. for example, facebook does not allow anonymity, you can have an anonymous identity and open a group and do something around that. facebook is a double-edged sword. at the same time it forces you to identify yourself, but also
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it allows communication. >> my understanding is in 2009, the two things iran did was slow down the internet so you couldn't download pictures, and also identify prominent facebook operators and pay them a visit, get their password and suggest a new way of communicating. this happens? >> yes, and if you saw in egypt happening as well. the april 6th movement, the guys behind those have been more than once been jailed, and wael ghonim has been identified and jailed as well on january 25th, 27th actually. so i think it's now -- we saw snort clinton talking about net freedom and some rules around that as well. it's tricky to identify how to allow people to voice and talk about democracy on online and be able to protest, but at the same time stay anonymous. >> wasn't one big things early on with google and with bill
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gates, microsoft and steve jobs, gu back decades that technology was going to free the world? people weren't quite sure what the heck that everything was talking about. is this not it? >> right now with everyone having access to internet, to reading on wikipedia, to communicate, to get external news, get media, more than what the state controls, it's something that's going to open up societies, and something we're seeing in tune is, in egypt, and in iran, and obviously the government's tries to contain that is not going to help. there are technology out to circumstance come vent those, and this is not going to last for long. >> last question, quickly what are the chances and what are your hopes for a new democratic government in egypt, but one that leapfrogs the balance of the world's governments to set a new standard for transparency and democracy on the earth? >> i have a very high expectation, activists are

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